That's not tactical!

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SAS_Random
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That's not tactical!

I hear these words all the time and laugh.
"Is this tactical?"
"Do you play tactical here?"

or...

"This is not tactical!"
"I can't play this way because I like to play tactical."

Tactical means "to have tactics." That's all it means!
Just because you play using different tactics, rules of engagement, etc., doesn't make someone else's tactics suddenly "not tactical."

Don't be an idiot!

I just had to say something because it's been one of those peeves I've had for a long time and it seems to happen more lately.

Feel free to chime in in support or rejection of my statements. But make sure you wear your big boy pants because I'll most likely be able to shoot down any statements that say we don't play tactical on SAS servers. Be warned and be afraid Wink

SAS_Vet_Random

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Flash
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I had player that says :

"I'm on real SWAT, and this is NOT really tactical server, we are using taser's etc. , this is just noobs patriot's rambo server."

Experience as well

SAS_Magnum
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If there are any rules in the server, about how you play there, than it can be counted as tactical server.

If there are no rules in the server, that says how you must play there, than it's NOT a tactical server.

Simple as that.

People are different and so the tactics.

SAS_Magnum Lance Corporal SAS 22nd Elite Virtual Regiment.

Lodige
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ill support the first 3 statements !!!

Ryan
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"a: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat

b: the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end"

Tactics in itself is maneuver, how you maneuver is up to you but it has to make combat sense in order to be tactical. You wouldn't send a 10-man team bounding up infront of a T-90 but you would set a baseline point of fire for your Javelin team.

If you're on SWAT -- Great for you. Each SWAT unit has its own SOP's and experience range. Each server may simulate something OTHER THAN SWAT!!!

When people focus on tactics they lose sight of principles, and principles is where it matters. Initiative based conditioned responses using prior training, not what the Military manual for 1979 told me to do.

Other than that I'd like to see SAS Clan use official terms, official entry techniques -- Be it the buttonhook to wall-flood, I'd love to see it done in SWAT 4 or RVS.

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

Raptor
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@Ryan: +1 for the principles, for the official terms and techniques (and also for the sword xD )

@Random:
Agree, but I guess it's the wrong place for your words...
(btw: I really tried to play the advocatus diaboli just to see your reply Biggrin but I wasn't able to find any arguments.)

Same category: this guys who play by pure memory. They feel like king and call you noob, because you pretend that you didn't played the map already 100 times...simply annoying.

SAS_WIZ
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In this kind of game there are 3 kinds of players:

1/ The guy who just bought it, to complete it perfectly as it was written.

2/ The guy who bought it, enjoyed it and wanted to take such an old game to the next level, and get immersive in that game.

3/ The kid that got it cheap just to run around and believe that he is god, by shooting stuff

If you believe in option 2, i have a link for you.....who can guess what that link is?

The point is, there are a million opinions about even a single game. The fact is, that if you want to stay in someones house, you keep your mouth shut and abide by the rules of that house.
Its all about respect for opinions Gentlemen.

SAS_WIZ

SAS_Random
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Good point again on memory play. Good thoughtful responses by all I think.

I play by memory enough so that I don't make mistakes and stack up near a door where I'll be killed the moment I open it or I might be very careful about a flash bang placement here or there when I know that the tango will cheat and not be affected or 1 shot kill me the instant I issue compliance.

For the most part we drop the flash inside the door or off the door, make our entries into opposing corners, shout our heads off and drop any tangos foolish enough to still be holding onto their weapons when the echo of the compliance order and final influences of the tactical aid fades away.

That is tactical play the SAS way.

I had another person do this again since the post. He said that shooting runners is not tactical. I said of course it is. It's our tactic to shoot runners. His response was, "...but he can be arrested later." It would be your tactic to shoot runners if your wife or child was in that bedroom the tango was running toward with his AK-47. Just because he's not pointing the weapon at the head of a civilian doesn't make him a non-threat. What if he enters that bedroom and shoots a civilian? Will arresting him later make you feel good about losing your wife or child?

Of course, I understand this is a game, but it doesn't mean that I don't have a perfectly legitimate reason for taking down a non-compliant armed threat instead of giving him free-run around the building.

There really is no other logical choice.

SAS_Vet_Random

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Ryan
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So you use the opposing corners technique as a standard? I personally never play by memory, it bores me, it's like repeating the same old. I like games where you get in and learn, I've had a few educational games with you guys and it's always been fun.

You always get people who analyze things differently and therefore have to comment on the way they do it or their real life experience to the in-game situation simulating some amount of realism or realistic elements. In SWAT I always put a good burst between their eyes and I have people moan at me... Simply ignore it. If you have a good team or good motivational skills you will keep the server on that standard, if not then it will drop and it will drop quick.

Therefore there are three types of players:
1. Pubbers with no knowledge or idea of what the hell they are doing
2. Tactical gamers who like to play it with some amount of tactical philosophy (even if it's low-grade)
3. Realism gamers who like to play it realistically, ignoring the obvious AI/game engine problems... As like people do in ARMA

If they are number #1 they may tag along, and that's the best you want. That means someday they may have some aspiration to hit #2... They may just be playing for pure fun.

If they are number #2 they will have their different ways of doing things, their IOP's. They may share that information or be the typical narc and moan about what you are doing.

If they are number #3 they may not adjust well to acting upon principles or not using realistic techniques or tactics because most realism gamers are conventional robots relying on tactics only; mainly real-life taught ones such as the buttonhook.

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

SAS_Random
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The point of my thread, I suppose, is that it's sad the word 'tactical' has become synonymous with total memory play combined with predetermined tac aid placement followed by taser rushing or gas rushing, and use of other less lethal weaponry in order to arrest everyone.

Issuing compliance is only about 25-30% effective on its own. Compliance with flashbang is about 75% effective. Use of gas or punching and issuing compliance is nearly always effective.

I play the game such that I try to get as many high-pressure, shoot-don't shoot decisions per round. If I could justify the shooting to a board of inquiry, then I don't worry about what the game rules of engagement or penalty structure are. I play for two words: Mission Completed.

SAS_Vet_Random

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Ryan
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The word "tactical" has become a total cliche in itself, as even clothing companies promote -- "TACTICAL SHORTS", "TACTICAL PANTS". I mean it's beyond stupidity. And the levels of which people use it; some to a very low-grade, others to a higher grade. I think memory playing is at the lower grade. It feels like the Communist way of following the leader, doing what he says - not developing an immediate action plan, co-ordinated formation or fires.

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

Bosco
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In this kind of game there are 3 kinds of players:

1/ The guy who just bought it, to complete it perfectly as it was written.

2/ The guy who bought it, enjoyed it and wanted to take such an old game to the next level, and get immersive in that game.

3/ The kid that got it cheap just to run around and believe that he is god, by shooting stuff

If you believe in option 2, i have a link for you.....who can guess what that link is?

........

I guess....
is it the link for #2 person?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/sas-mod-v10-for-swat-4-expansion-tss/downloads/sas-mod-v10

Lodige
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no it is sasclan.org Wink

Bosco
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no it is sasclan.org Wink

haha,
i thought of that, but afraid too simple to get it right
nvm

Ryan
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Lol nothing to do with the conversation? Blum 3

So you form yourself around the 22SAS, British SAS. Ever thought about basing some SOP's around their SOP's and IOP's? Their entry drills?

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

Lodige
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hello ryan Smile

ur right i dont have to say some about ur conversation with random.
but i think u dont realize that we also play arma and there u have alot different movements then in swat.
sure ur right when u say u wont send a 10 man team infront of a t90 but we have it over swat not arma or battlefield.we talk about close quarter combat and not open area war.so in this case i dont understand ur problem with our SWAT tactics.
what u think we have to change or think about our SOP's?i cant read what exactly u miss in our swat tactics.the last years the SOP's changed depends on the situations we had in game.
maybe it was a good sign if u can post some things u mean we can do better.noone here will say bad things about ideas for a better gameplay or a realistc gameplay believe me we had alot conversations about what is nearly real or what is just not the way how any special task force in the world act in combat.
sry for my english .
maybe u can go abit in the detail what u miss or what u think we doing wrong.
and what Wiz sayd in his post
''
The point is, there are a million opinions about even a single game. The fact is, that if you want to stay in someones house, you keep your mouth shut and abide by the rules of that house.
Its all about respect for opinions Gentlemen''
is the logically consequence of comming here telling us we are doing wrong without any better ideas.

MAVEN
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tactical

As a saying goes - A harvest may go as far as there are crops. In other words, as long there are n00bies around so will be n00bish actions, and that's normal for the world we live in Lol

The only worse thing than n00bs saying what's tactical and what's not is clans gossiping about each others tactics. Even though tactics may vary from clan to clan, they are still tactics practiced by clans, and in CO-Op league there is no doubt there's lots of tactical teamplay going on, so what's the fuzz about?

Anyway, when I started playing swat 4 in MP, I ended up in a server (can't remember the name, it's no longer up also) where I was voted as a leader, wait what? I was a rookie, oh well, I did give formation and equipment, but instead, I had 2-3 complete noobs who didn't take what was ordered and when asked why not they said "that's not tactical" Can you guess what they had? If you thought of LMG, 9mm machine gun, 2 stingers, 1 ammo pouch, 1 pepper spray and wand, black skin, heavy armor, and a gas mask gas mask, then you nailed it. I laughed so hard, but I laughed far more when one of them didn't know why doors don't open and instead pepper sprayed it, the 2nd came and said how the dumwit doesn't know doors need to be breached, I thought to myself, finally, someone at least knows about breaching shotgun when to my own surprise, the guy shot the doors with his LMG, and after whole minute of doing so and hopping around they started asking me "Maven, why doors not open, why closed, glitch? RESTART! ADMIN restart ADMIN!" I couldn't reply, I was laughing my arse off. At the end, one of them said again - That's not tactical, and left, 1 by 1 they followed, so server got empty fast.

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MAVEN
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we also play arma

I can haz servur IP? :3

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SAS_Magnum
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Re: tactical

As a saying goes - A harvest may go as far as there are crops. In other words, as long there are n00bies around so will be n00bish actions, and that's normal for the world we live in Lol

The only worse thing than n00bs saying what's tactical and what's not is clans gossiping about each others tactics. Even though tactics may vary from clan to clan, they are still tactics practiced by clans, and in CO-Op league there is no doubt there's lots of tactical teamplay going on, so what's the fuzz about?

Anyway, when I started playing swat 4 in MP, I ended up in a server (can't remember the name, it's no longer up also) where I was voted as a leader, wait what? I was a rookie, oh well, I did give formation and equipment, but instead, I had 2-3 complete noobs who didn't take what was ordered and when asked why not they said "that's not tactical" Can you guess what they had? If you thought of LMG, 9mm machine gun, 2 stingers, 1 ammo pouch, 1 pepper spray and wand, black skin, heavy armor, and a gas mask gas mask, then you nailed it. I laughed so hard, but I laughed far more when one of them didn't know why doors don't open and instead pepper sprayed it, the 2nd came and said how the dumwit doesn't know doors need to be breached, I thought to myself, finally, someone at least knows about breaching shotgun when to my own surprise, the guy shot the doors with his LMG, and after whole minute of doing so and hopping around they started asking me "Maven, why doors not open, why closed, glitch? RESTART! ADMIN restart ADMIN!" I couldn't reply, I was laughing my arse off. At the end, one of them said again - That's not tactical, and left, 1 by 1 they followed, so server got empty fast.

God, I would probably be dead, how stupid people can be ?!

SAS_Magnum Lance Corporal SAS 22nd Elite Virtual Regiment.

Ryan
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Well firstly Lodgie, I know you guys play ARMA, from what I know -- irregularly and from when I've been there - casually. I play it also, this isn't a new fact to me. I play with the ACE and ACRE mod, I base myself around people that use tactics and tactical sense -- A lot of real-life counterparts; hardcore gameplay. Unfortunately opposite to what I've seen with SAS playing ARMA. No battle drills, no knowledge of even reading a map to say the least from when I've been there.

What I mean is, as I have ALREADY stated. There is no plan. As Random says it's all memory play... Therefore what's the point of a plan? 1. This misses all realistic aspects of tactical gameplay. 2. This isn't tactical. Then when you don't have a plan, gradually you begin to lose teamwork -- The SAS clan play by memory and working together when plausible due to this memory play so infact sometimes it's opposite from remaining in a team rather than splitting off and lone wolfing it which I see constantly. Again you lose immersion, especially from a clan naming itself after the 22SAS. And P.S. A plan isn't drawing a line and saying let's go!

There are many other areas such as assigning a TL, now that is simple but there isn't a TL because you don't need one, I'm sure you guys do it differently with 6+ guys on, when I've been there it's been about 4-6 max. That's enough for a fireteam and some proper techniques and tactics.

I think you start naming off things, actual techniques and tactics instead of just drawing a line through a bunch of rooms and off you go -- That's why half the time it goes to crap, then someone gets blamed for it and it's just stupidity. Assigning blame for a lack of TL, Plan and idea of what's going on. Tactics in CQC are based around room layout, you have the floor plans infront of you and do nothing with them, it's like a one dimensional way of playing.

You guys have SOP's, great, what are they based on? Where are they stated? I base my SOP's on experience, knowledge and real-life tactics mixed in. I try to break SOP's when a situation I don't know comes up I just react. I get the fact that everybody plays differently but the consistently in that gameplay that I see off you guys is poor-grade memory play.

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

Lodige
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hmm... and u mean u dont play by memory?
we have a RVS mod where u cant play by memory because the tangos are not on the same places theyr patroling the same is for the swat SAS mod the tangos are never on the same place and mate u cant blame us for the game himself. thats why we maked the patrol mod and the sas mod that u can NOT play by memory.
if u stand with this meaning then u cant play this games mate sry but this is just true.we are not ubisoft and we are not sierra so dont blame us for the misstakes theyr programmed.i think we did alot to change that.
what about u go on a battlefield server and u shoot down a sniper whos sitting in his corner u shoot him 3 times on the same place isnt this memoryplaying?
i dont have any problems with u ryan i never played with u before but im sure if i see u playing ur not better then anyone else here or in another clan
so stop crying about things we cant change we didnt make the games and i think keller and francyswat spend alot time to change somethings to make it more realistic.what did u do? u did nothing ! u comes here and blame us ?
comeon ryan u can mean that serious or do u?

SAS_DUKE
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It's a matter of the human brain, if you do things some hundred times, again and again, then memory play is hard to avoid.

Nevertheless, it's up to yourself how you handle it. Be creative, leave "safe" and washed-out pathes, try something new...

"What's the plan?
Track'em, find'em, kill'em!"

Raptor
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+1 for Duke

Just because you remember the positions of tangos, that doesn't mean you have to "actively use" this knowledge to optimize your assault.

@Lodige: I think Ryan posted about SAS gameplay in Arma only, not in Swat, RvS or BattlefieldX.

I know this phenomenon myself: I start to play other tactical games (RvS, Arma, H&D2) with friends from Swat. Well, in Swat we don't move without an EL, detailed EQ and a general plan. But in the "new" games...the first tries are usually just unplanned and chaotic. We just start to explore the new game (game, not map Wink ), adapt to the new environment. When everyone is used to the new game dynamics (keyboard layout, major bugs), then we start to plan more detailed and use tactics which we already know from other games.
Imho it just takes some time to gain experince and also self-confidence, before you start to take the lead and make plans in a new game (although you already know the tactics from other games and leaded 100 times in these games). If a group of tactical minded friends starts to play a new game, they usually lack of such a leader. But as time goes by, this should change Wink

Lodige
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we dont have a arma server and arma isnt a officiell SAS game right now.
so i cant see any problems here.
the game is in the testing phase !!!
and it will be great to got some help from more in that game intigrated players but blaming our style isnt the right way to change some misstakes.i know that sniper is playing alot and hes testing alot and hes also a soldier so dont tell me that he have no idea about tactics or movements.
only that u play the arma game longer with more experience players doesnt mean u know everything about tactics or movements.
if arma becomes a officiell game status then u can come back and start a discusion about our gameplay.

Ryan
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+2 for Duke.

Lol I gave you a list of ideas, changeable patterns of gameplay such as using real-life tactics, such as planning phases pre-game, such as working as a whole team not wolfing it. You obviously took that for somehow me blaming you, I wasn't, you asked me where you could improve. You somehow then turned that into me talking about Battlefield, Ubisoft and Sierra, which I didn't. Memory play happens constantly, no matter what mods you guys are using, and it's a shame because it then loses that immersion of a tactical clan. Whenever I've played with you guys you haven't done it, I'd like to see that is all...

I seriously expected a tactical-realism clan, representing some aspect of the 22.

I try not to play by memory, no, but when I do I use a real-life technique for that specific situation of which I practice with a few close Australian mates. You have a whole clan here you could do that stuff with, instead we just see the same old individual pie'ing out a room, then walk in, shoot tango, keep moving. It's all dynamic, but in a robot way because it's all memory play. You're using a CQC game to a disadvantage I feel by not allowing that, it's like using ARMA without learning field battle drills; without learning how to bound or have a baseline of fire. That is the opposite to what tactical clans do.

So of course people will spit "That's not tactical", because simply put it isn't on any tactical baseline. You could prove them wrong by changing that way: Plan, assign roles, assign weapons, paths of movement, entry drills for each room, ROE, limits of advance, SOP's/IOP's.... Instead of... Random people with random weapons, some follow and others don't, a plan is a line drawn on the map, people micromanage you.

My idea of CQB is running in with a sword.

Lodige
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we cant prove them wrong right now because we dont play it officiell ( arma)
if we make it officiell u can join us to show us how u think it should be played Wink
is it just me or u who take this game to serious ? Smile

dont understand me wrong ryan but i think we and many other clans like ETS and AST have different visions about how to handle some situations.the way we play is for US the perfectly way to play, u never will change that.thats just human that ppl handle situations totally diffrent. we doesnt say we have the perfect way to play.but u must say that it needs time to make some basics for a new game.u need ppl and time for this.the field manuell wasnt writen in one day.theyr changed it alot depends on the situations theyr had in the battle.
again sry for my english but im german and its not easy for me to let u know without trapping on ur foots how i think about it. Smile

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There is a simple solution. If you do not like our tactics, don't play on our servers.

Over the years, many people have come along, who aren't brave enough to try and join us, but they simply want to tell us that we are doing things completely in the wrong way.
The problem that i have with that is: What is the average life span of a gaming clan? How long has SAS been at the top, not only of the games; but in the various communities that we have been involved in over the years?

My opinion is that, we aint that bad Wink

SAS_WIZ

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Ryan have you got a problem with our clan?

The SOPs you speak of i wrote. Now if you know me and from what i have read so far on this thread you dont, so i will start slow for you.

SAS Elite Virtual Regiment is the longest standing tactical realism clan in the SWAT and RVS communities and i believe has gone longer than any ARMA2 clan by 4 years.

We base ourselves on the 22SASR which is a part of the British Army. A unit on a couple of tours of duty have had the pleasure of serving with.

When i wrote the SOPs for our clan, i wanted to give all of our players an experience of being in the SAS using the games that we have at our disposal. What is taught in SAS EVR is tactics that the British Army have been using for years and are still effective tactics in todays combat environments.

I dont know what you have experienced during your time here, and before you go attacking my clan again i suggest you take look back and say have i had a good time on SAS Servers. Hundreds of players over the years have said Yes. Now what is your answer?

SAS_Capt_Sniper

Head of Recruitment & Tactical Training

GCHQ - 22nd SAS Elite Virtual Regiment

Raptor
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Pls don't get me wrong, because I don't have any problems with our clan. But imho Ryan just complained that you don't use any SOPs in Arma.
Yeah Lodige, I understand that Arma is just in testing phase. But what exactly do you test if you don't apply your SOPs (or any basic tactics) to the game yet? [Pls notice the "if", I never played Arma with you guys yet.]

Btw: Is there a way to get a look at your SOPs for non-members?

2nd btw: Lodige, AST vision of tactics doesn't differ that much from SAS. Just our organisation and approach of teaching Wink

Lodige
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i dont get u wrong mate Blum 3 about the SOP's
believe me when i say u need much time too read it all Wink
i cant give them out like all members or ex members u need to understand that mate Smile
only the GCHQ can answer that question i think

MAVEN
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tactics

@Magnum, go check out Call of Duty or DayZ and your soul will die a little (No, actually don't, it's dangerous to get exposed to the level of stupidity accumulated in one spot Lol )

Anyway, it seems like this is a discussion rolling fast and with lots of detail. I'll give my 2 cents to it.

SAS, the Special Air Service are what their name says - A fine blend between military and specially trained operators for battlefields, air but also urban terrain.

Nothing comes perfect, so you can't expect SAS to be perfect in, say, a large battlefield although there are units that can achieve good results, but neither a perfect SWAT style tactical outcome. SAS is primarily an elite combating terrorism by all means necessary, whether slow paced or rapidly deployed, the end result is that threats are neutralized, civilians secured and everyone is happy with the end result (except for the terrorists).

SAS EVR is following the original style of SAS, and by far it's the best gaming team coming closest to the real SAS tactics, to be honest, I've learned about SAS on this forum and SAS EVR servers more than on any other place.

SWAT, Special Weapons And Tactics although an elite unit by itself, is a general unit category name for many other units. Basically what it means is using tech, knowledge and information to SAVE LIVES from both the civilian and threatening sides. This also means that SWAT tactics are done slower than SAS ones, but this doesn't mean that the end result can't be same or at least similar, in fact it can.

Many Swat 4 clans are based on SWAT tactics, doesn't surprise, the game is called SWAT 4 after all...

Either way, to put it simple, it's like comparing an SUV in a drag race with say Koenig CCX where lap time, speed and other details don't matter but the bare objective of reaching the finish line, in other words, they both do it, just a different way and from a different point of view.

It's also worth mentioning that no special force elite will leak their sensitive details in public, and this is a public forum we chit-chat in, SAS in particular is careful about it's details and that's why so little is known about the unit itself, which means you can't expect SAS EVR to be like real SAS 100% either, even more when it comes to games like Arma where SAS's battlefield tactics are even less known than the CQB ones and the CQB ones "escaped" just thanks to the Iranian Embassy publicity.

As for the Arma 2 server, what mods do you run? Since it's not a dedicated server, I have a suggestion - Small cqb maps, I have few good vanilla ones already uploaded online, let me know if you are interested.

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